Curse

Viti Ligo · Jan 04, 2012, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Hello all.

Just started playing with my dervish a little while ago and after several team setups my band looks something like this atm:

Template codes:
player :OgGjwup6qS9gibfbdbmXZXSXDY
Tahlkora: OwUT44hCxhIkB8ZWfqvLp6PPA
Morgahn : OQCjgqmbpShiFZCZjY7YWY1Yyb
Xandra : OACiEyi8wM9mXzyJGTaO5Gm
Razah: OAaiAyk8MNpmYTrX40ZCNRG
Keiran: OQCjcuoapShiFZ/YjYeYdYaY9Y
Dunkoro: OwUD4avjOEhMgPz6vRm+uk9B
Zhed: OgNCwsyUvwYlfGtAuADYLhFB

While this has worked quite well, I have only been doing mostly easy things so far, NM missions, EotN and some vanquishing in Echowald and Jade sea.

Now as I have harder parts left to do I am looking for improvements to the team, and even possibilities to squeeze it to 6 heroes...

Suggestions ?

PS: For those who wonder - I really, really , really really hate some conditions and hexes while playing melee char...

Coast · Jan 04, 2012, 02:01 PM // 14:01

why don't u take deep wound skill as dervish?

Olle · Jan 04, 2012, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Mindblast is an very weak ele skill, single target, not the best dps.

Id go for an esurge, or if you really want an ele, go Unsteady grounds ele with some wards..

Scourge healing is not an very good skill tbh.

Lanier · Jan 04, 2012, 03:13 PM // 15:13

The point of mind blast isn't the direct damage from the elite. MB allows you to nonstop spam high energy spells (like rodgorts) while using an energy management skill that provides a little more damage in the process (as opposed to dual attunements). its pretty good in normal mode, and I imagine that it will be useable in HM too when the ele update comes out.

Olle · Jan 04, 2012, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The point of mind blast isn't the direct damage from the elite. MB allows you to nonstop spam high energy spells (like rodgorts) while using an energy management skill that provides a little more damage in the process (as opposed to dual attunements). its pretty good in normal mode, and I imagine that it will be useable in HM too when the ele update comes out.

You will have enought energy to spam rodgorts with fire attun+aor.

Id wait with any ele build before ele update hits anyway.

HigherMinion · Jan 04, 2012, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Twin Moon Sweep and Staggering Force are staples in any PvE dervish build. Also, take MoP.

Kendil · Jan 04, 2012, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I am missing mesmers in that teambuild. They are just so strong crowdcontrollers. A minionwall might be a good idea too, death nova and dwaynas sorrow are great skills.

Lanier · Jan 04, 2012, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

You will have enought energy to spam rodgorts with fire attun+aor.

err, no. AoR (should be elemental lord in PvE) + fire attunement is not enough to spam rodgorts on recharge, when taking into account that there are other energy-costing skills on the bar.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 04, 2012, 11:00 PM // 23:00

D/W: Run spammable Deep Wound somewhere.

Mo/Me: Okay. Possible overkill on Energy Management.

P/X: Okay, but I feel like a P/X here is misplaced, especially without Barbs/Mark of Pain.

Rt/X: Good.

Rt/E: Good.

P/X: Okay, but once again, feels misplaced.

Mo/Me: Scourge Healing is awful. Other than that, okay.

E/Mo: Run Searing Flames. It's just better. More Damage, same utility, and works better with "They're on Fire!".

Overall, just okay. Paragons make the build a ton weaker than it probably could be. Mesmers are generally a good thing as well. A minion master could help alleviate some of your Hex and Condition issues.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jan 05, 2012, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Heres what I run on my warrior (assuming its similar to dervish)

Me-Warriors Endurance axe (sometimes earthshaker or dragonslash)
sos rit with smite hex and soh and splinter weapon (this hero is your bff, with her/him, you will do crazy damage if you can corner pull/ball)
sogm rit
Panic mesmer < hard rez
ineptitude mesmer
mm necro with prots < hard rez
pod curses necro with fall back/stand your ground/we shall return < uber hard rez
resto necro (elite doesnt matter, so you can bring whatever you want depending on the area. usually i bring blood bond and ravenous gaze for a little more heaing and aoe, but its hardly the best choice)

I am not a fan of roj because it causes to much scatter, meaning i get less hits off from splinter weapon. However, if you want it, you can add resto to the sos rit and drop the last hero for a roj monk.

HigherMinion · Jan 05, 2012, 06:13 AM // 06:13

To be honest, change your ele to an Orders nec with SoH for yourself. Make sure you're running physical damage. Maybe take Onslaught over VoS. Drop the PvE res skill. Wearying Strike+Radiant+TMS+Rending Aura+Onslaught= gogogo

Viti Ligo · Jan 05, 2012, 11:03 AM // 11:03

There has been good points so far, thanks everyone. However, perhaps, I need to tell bit more how I play, in order to get further suggestions, so this is going to be a long story; I am afraid.

I really like my own build, it can do devasting AoE damage and it works very well as it is for me. Even in HM entire mobs tend to die at the point I lauch chilling victory ( if everything has gone as should, not happen allways for some reason

). I though it's crappy skill in hm, but it seems to do it work ok. If everything goes well, I'll be doing most of the damage in team, so it might be possible to even lower the damage output of rest of the party, maybe.

What comes to paragons...I really like the old man ( Morgahn ) but as heroes they are really the tricky ones. They seems to weaken the team but are really hard to replace with. First of all, they have proper armor level and they do ranged damage and are capable of quite decent damage reduction and healing too, while having nice e-management build in. And as paragons are like they are, one paragon is less than one really, while 2 is a bit more than two so there's no point having only one and I can't see how I could fit third para in... it seems 2 para it is.

I really hate conditions and "It's just a Flesh wound" is really excellent ( best? ) skill for cond removal. Aria of Zeal and Aria of Restoration seems to be weak, but somehow they still makes a big difference in caster based team. "Go for the eyes" is kind of a must. Also "Fall back!" works much better on paragon due to higher command.

There are however 2 skill in motivation paragon I am not certain of. The one is Chorus of restoration - it have certain benefits, but only to the two paragons atm. Would it be wiser to drop it off or somehow increase shouts in party ( for example a earth shaker warrior with bunch of shouts like FGJ, Fear me, To The limit.. to get KD's in the party)? The other questionable skill is "They are on Fire". It's really nice skill to reduce damage taken but requires that foes are burning and really the reason why zhed is in and running the build he has. It's really quite good build to cause burning all over and frequent spamming of skills helps Zhed to stay alive quite well. While he's doing decent damage, I admit that he's the weak lenk in team.

The rits are good, in fact Xandra is maybe the most powerfull hero in my team atm,so it's hard to replaced them or improve their performance either. Except maybe Razah's, there might be some room for better skills.

The monks then... Tahlkora doesn't heal too much but has hex and cond removal and RoJ for damage. She's also keeping up SoH on me. Dunkoro... he has RoJ too and also pretty nice healing skills. Dwayna's kiss works great when cast on me as I have 3 to 5 enchantments on me all the time during battles ( well dust cloak is on really short period at time but anyway ). Maybe there's a way to combine these two and make room for something else, but will 1 RoJ be enough ? At least if I keep "They are on fire".....

The things I don't have yet and the ones I miss most ( many of these are suggested I should have ):

Necro:
Order of the Vampire ( or Order of Pain ), though do Ihave enough physicals for this ?
Blood Bond
Mark of pain

Mesmer:
Ancestor's Visage( yes really the most desired mesmer skill for me but only useable on relatively high illusion magic)
Shared Burden
Clumsiness / Signet of clumsiness
Psychic Distraction

Monk:
Unyielding Aura for superfast rez

Other than certain skills:

Deep wound : well one of paras can do this with Vicious Attack ?
Knock Down : ?

And about MM: I know MM necro is very powerfull addition to any team, but for certain reason I try to cope without one.

Also without MM necro and keeping in mind that my build tends to kill several foes at a time resto Necro may not be so effective either due to restrictions Soul reaping has. Soul reaping just can't benefit the kills to the fullest and there's no minions as battery either. Necros have Sols of course but even then... their e-management is not so superior compared to other choices, in this case.

So, what's the room left for impovements now?

Monks, the whole builds are open to suggestions. There's an option to move forward more supportive role there. Better healing/protting with melee buffs -> more damage to dealt by myself.

Paras, their key skills are "It's just a flesh wound", hex breaker aria, and Aria of zeal/restoration.Stunning strike can be replaced as long as Daze is there in some way.

Zhed, can be replaced or build altered. The monk skills he has now are really optional there - can be replaced with anything, though current ones are handy as they are quite usefull and unlinked. Or the whole build can be reworked. Though I have already tried ER orders and ER protter on him... as I prefer OotV over OoP I didn't like too much the orders version...

Wielder Of Magic · Jan 05, 2012, 11:38 AM // 11:38

You do not really need 'its just a fleshwound' to get rid of conditions.
I think you should take a close look at the team suggestion from Pugs Not drugs.
Not saying you should copy it, but to give you some ideas about versatility.

You have a paragon for its just a fleshwound.
So you waste an elite slot for condition removal.
Mend body and soul on your sos hero should take care of any nasty condition for a melee ( mainly blind).
Hex removal can either be put on mesmers, or anything with a free secondary to go/Mo.
Stunning strike isn't that great either.
It takes a long time to build up, and usually you do not have it ready when you need it because the hero wasted it.
If you are so worried about casters that you want daze, consider a mesmer.
Panic renders mobs useless, Psychic Instability can possibly do that even better.
Or just bring technobabble if you have a free slot on your own skillbar.
I would personally ditch the ele, as for now they are not worth bringing ( especially when you get to harder areas/Hardmode).
Armor ignoring damage is still top of the line ( as long as the HM update does not hit) so E-surge or keystone if you ball will outperform it.
If you really want an ele in your team either run unsteady ground earth + wards, or give him an invoke bar.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 05, 2012, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Hey Viti, what is your first language? I am curious.

I will give you the tools to make your own builds based on what you have told me and how you like to understand builds. I will tell you if what you are using is good or bad and why, then I will tell you what is better and why.

Resurrections:
You have: Eternal Aura, Signet of Return

Meta: Flesh of my Flesh, Death Pact Signet, Restore Life, Signet of Return

Explanation:
What you have chosen is alright except for Eternal Aura. The extra health is mostly useless (compared to what you could have instead) and the Res can't be timed. Instead, run some damage and put one of the other Res's on another character. Two Res's total should be fine. (*Note: Death Pact Signet only works in parties where deaths are rare and shouldn't be used in high-end areas)

Condition Removal:
You have: Smite Condition, Mend Body and Soul, "IJaFW!", Purge Conditions

Meta: Mend Body and Soul, Foul Feast

Explanation: You are over-killing your condition removal. Two copies of Mend Body and Soul should easily keep your entire party clean. Using an elite slot just for condition removal weakens your build, since Mend Body and Soul will also remove all conditions (you have many spirits), is not elite, and is on a more PvE friendly class (Ritualist). Smite Condition is okay, but that is all it is; just okay. Purge Conditions should never be taken, anywhere.

Hex Removal:
You have: Smite Hex x2, Hexbreaker Aria x2, Remove Hex

Meta: Smite Hex, Shatter Hex, ???

Explanation: Most parties, being caster based, can ignore Hexes. Since you cannot, you have many options. Hexbreaker Aria is okay, but you only need one copy. Remove Hex is also just okay. Smite Hex at least gives you some damage on the removal, which is good. Shatter Hex will also give your party more DPS. Try to stick with both of the later (Smite Hex and Shatter Hex) if you need removals. Keep Hexbreaker Aria, but drop one copy for something else.

Other Suggestions:
Check out Racthoh's build for Paragons. Since you are also a Physical Based character, you can benefit from it as well. This build was made before you could use 7 Heroes, so I'm sure he's come up with something better by now, but this will give you an idea.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Racway
I would suggest, along with many others, that you use either a Cultist's Fevor Orders or a Dwayna's Orders instead of the Ele.

Also, since you are big on defense, getting the Warrior PvE only skill "Save Yourselve's!" to spam (with the Help of Dark Fury on the Orders) will give you party huge damage mitigation.

Viti Ligo · Jan 07, 2012, 07:32 AM // 07:32

@Kaida: my native language is finnish, really don,t have use english that often.

Ele update made me change my team quite much, But paragons are there also Razah is there with hexes dropped and resto heals in. To my suprise I was able to let Xandra out.

For those satung I waste elite slot for cond removal, as melee I need fast condition removal even more so because I am the main damage dealer in team. "It's just a flesh wound" is superior for it's short recharge and istant cast being a shout. Foul feast comes close but as cond removal, mend body & soul is unreliable when used by hero, because it is secondary effect and heroes tend to use skills based on their primary function, in this case, healing.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viti Ligo

...mend body & soul is unreliable when used by hero, because it is secondary effect and heroes tend to use skills based on their primary function, in this case, healing.

That is actually not how the Heroes use it. They will Mend anyone with a condition as it's primary use. It's the same reason Dismiss Condition is bad on Heroes; they use the skill if a player has a condition, even if they aren't enchanted, which negates the healing portion of the skill.

Obviously, I can't force you to forgo "IJaFW!" because if you want to run it, you will (and that's the fun part of GW, right!), but I would highly advise against it. Foul Feast and/or MBaS should be enough to keep you clean of conditions. A large portion of a player's skillbar is derived from Elites, and you are negating yourself a lot of power by dedicating one of them as condition removal.

Also, did you add a minion master to your party? I know you said you dislike using them, but they are great for absorbing conditions and hexes (monsters love to target them).

Viti Ligo · Jan 13, 2012, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I am rethinkin the whhole team again, this time I am trying to base it on Dwaynaway dervish heroes ( 2 ) for partywide healing. This is the core of the team:
me: heart of fury, Vow Of Strenght, Sand shards, Veil of Thorns, Dust Cloak, Staggering Force, Chilling Victory , Pious Assault
M.O.X.: Meditation, Avatar of Dwayna, Sand shards, Lyssa's Haste, Whirling Charge, Fleeting Stability, Grenth's Aura, Pious Assault
Kahmu:Meditation, Avatar of Dwayna, Whirling Charge, Attaker's Insight, Conviction, Fleeting Stability, Signet Of Pious Light, Release Enchantments

M.O.X is wielding scythe and 8+1 in scythe mastery, Kahmu is equipped with staff and set to avoid combat. So far derrvishes have been able to provide enough healling but Kahmu needs as many copies of Aegis as possible on team ( I have tried with 2 and 3 copies ). Also splinter weapon on high channeling is kind of required for much improved damage output.

I am not sure whether I should put those 2 or 3 copies of Aegis on Monks or necros or eles...

LexTalionis · Jan 17, 2012, 03:15 PM // 15:15

@Viti Ligo

Glad to see you're trying out Dwaynaway - I'd just like to point out to make sure your Release enchantments Dervish is using passive mode with a staff/wand. Now for the nitty-gritty:

Firstly, I've tried all kinds of team compositions, but I've noticed if you really just need basic healing, 1 Staff Dwayna healer is plenty. Two Dwayna dervishes are often overkill and slow down your killing speed. If you use the melee version (which has bad AI), Splinter weapon is naturally complusory.

Aegis can be stuck onto just about any hero with a low protection prayers investment. A bare minimum of 4 is alright, and 2 copies is enough, they can also be replaced by bringing an ER Protter with shield guardian/Aegis, or a MM with Dwayna's Sorrow. Either one of those will work in lieu of having multiple Aegis casters.

When you get more into the habit of microing, I'd suggest binding a key to release enchantments and doing it manually as your "emergency heal" button. Aegis is more of a convenience so that the AI will do it for you.

The other problem with Dwaynaway is that it doesn't single-target spotheal particularly well (but neither to resto or monk heroes, to be honest). You're vulnerable to large damage spikes, hence I originally suggested Soul Twisting as a good way of reducing damage to manageable levels. However, don't let that exclude protection prayers (which can replace ST quite effectively in most circumstances) or even basic armour buffs. Sadly, Dwaynaway is at its absolute strongest with an Imbagon, which you would have to main (the combo is about equivalent of turning on godmode for 99.9% of the game). The ST ritualist is entirely expendable.

Don't bother worrying about protecting your dervish. If I ever wipe on Dwaynaway (usually thanks to inattention and autorun), the dervish is usually the absolute last one standing thanks to insanely high armour and hex immunity, and they occasionally stay alive long enough to survive the 10 seconds it takes me to rez.

Viti Ligo · Jan 18, 2012, 10:14 AM // 10:14

@LexTalionis:
First: Thanx for Dwaynaway build! I used builds with same general idea before, but never noticed the power of Release Enchantments before. Also I used mystic healing to buff partywide healing while signet of pious light really seems to work better.

Also I have noticed that heroes are less willing to use aegis with low prot prayers, it seems 9 is some kind of breaking point in that.

My current team builds is here:

It works quite well, though there are some problems too. One of them is movement speed with up to 21 minions around and no speed boost. I have to wait now and then before rushing in. Also minions are going to die easier between fight than if there were BotM on MM - but that's quite heavy sacrifice when having max minions and in the other hand there's no need for BotM while fighting - dwayna dervs can keep minions alive better than necros would during battle.

The other problem there is hex removal, Livia and Zhed are using hex removals also on Kahmu and M.O.X. ( who really don't need it ) and so there are occasions I don't get hexes removed because of that. This is rare though.

The MM necros works very well together. With AotL and Jagged Bones ( and dwayna dervs taking care of healing of the minions ) they can rise minions very fast and also keep the army size at max most of the time. In fact I have been thinking of replacing Zhed with third MM, at least in some areas it could work out very well, I think.

UA on Tahlkora is bit overkill maybe but in occasions someone dies it makes rezzing almost instant and so occasional deaths don't really matter at all.

I would like to have Morgahn in team but can't figure what role a paragon hero could play in there....

Wielder Of Magic · Jan 18, 2012, 10:19 AM // 10:19

How does the Soul Twisting rit work out for you with all those minions?
Even with instant recharge on shelter, I'd say shelter dies pretty quick since the 10% damage prot also applies to all those minions, not just the party.
It feels like you would get rolled if one AI gets lucky and fires a nuke off ( very likely, since I do not spot a lot of rupts in your team), thus demolishing both shelter AND your minion army.

Then again, I run other things with my dervish, so no actual experience with this teambuild of yours.